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User talk:Aleal
Apologies Didn't realise performing guessing was speculation. I took out the Oz reference as well cause it was pretty much another guess on who it might be. If I had some kind of program that could seperate their voices, it'd be much easier to tell. Or if any of those albums credited who's who. Wattamack4 22:41, February 14, 2010 (UTC)Alex :We include performer identifications by ear only when there's no doubt whatsoever and no disagreement, when it's quite clearly Oz or Henson or whoever. If you're arguing based on how dominant the voice is, then it's not something to include. I haven't heard the album version, but Oz is usually easier to distinguish than any guess as to Robinson or Cerf or whatever (but yeah, if they're mixed chorus voices and you can't tell, don't try to guess). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 22:45, February 14, 2010 (UTC) ::Yeah, I understand now. I may as well just bring it up on the talk page if none of the albums credit who being who. And by the way, in case you're wondering, this is what the album version sounds like. Wattamack4 22:48, February 14, 2010 (UTC)Alex :::Yeah, speculation on the talk pages (as long as it isn't merely "I think it's A or maybe B or maybe C," random name listing, which does crop up) is fine and on rare occasions even productive, but generally, when it comes to one-liners or chorus or other very minor voice roles when it's not obviously a distinctive voice we're all familiar with, it becomes a matter of guessing and a subjective issue (how it sounds to a given listener, which as in cases like Talk:Astoria, varies considerably). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 23:06, February 14, 2010 (UTC) Hola! I know you're working on a bunch of stuff, but when you have a free moment, can you pull out any Plaza Sesamo DVD's that you have? Working on the transition from Genius to Warner got me to thinking about the Spanish stuff, and now I'm finding library sites that say that they were handled by Ventura and Sony, and they even show Sony numbers that fall between the US numbers, which I find interesting, since I've never seen them for sale in the US. I'm curious what the UPC and catalog numbers are, and which companies are credited on the back. No hurry, but if you ever pull them out for something you're working on, please let me know. Gracias! -- Ken (talk) 07:57, February 13, 2010 (UTC) Kit-Cat Klock How many years have I been on here and I've never noticed Kit-Cat Klock one time? I hang my head in shame. What a great little article I never would have thought of! -- Nate (talk) 17:05, February 9, 2010 (UTC) :Glad you liked it (and thanks for correcting the spelling)! It inspired me to upload a better picture I've had sitting around for a few months (in an episode in which Eliot Shag faces eviction, the surly building super taunts him with Shag's own Kit-Cat!) -- Andrew Leal (talk) 18:40, February 9, 2010 (UTC) ::Well now I have something else to always keep my eye open for when watching stuff. lol -- ''Nate (talk) 18:49, February 9, 2010 (UTC) Le Bébête Show I stumbled across this by accident today on here. Just a little blurb on the page for ''Le Muppet Show. It talked about Le Bébête Show, and when I did a little wiki research I was kinda shocked. A total spoof of the Muppets. There is a fair amount of information on the web, including a wikipedia article. What are your thoughts about having some information on this somewhere on the wiki? -- Nate (talk) 22:33, February 7, 2010 (UTC) :Yeah, I'd meant to cover it in detail ages ago but then just plain forgot entirely. It's kind of the unholy love-child of ''The Muppet Show and Spitting Image (the fake Kermit is especially creepy). So if you feel like starting a page, go ahead (it certainly qualifies as a TV Mention), though it would take work to break down which politician became which Muppet and the rest of the details (which is probably why I'd just left it at the blurb). But if you feel up to the challenge and going through assorted French language articles (I'd be cautious with the English Wikipedia page, which didn't exist at the time; try to compare the two if you can, even if separated by Babelfish, unless you know someone who can translate), go for it! Adding info on dubs is less complicated (just requires knowing key terms like "doublage," "voix," etc.) -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:51, February 8, 2010 (UTC) ::I started an article. I figured once one is up, it encourages people to contribute. I did the best I could with the information I could drudge up. -- Nate (talk) 17:05, February 9, 2010 (UTC) Marx Brothers question Hey Andrew, did you see the question at Talk:The Marx Brothers? I thought you might weigh in on it. -- ''Nate (talk) 22:21, February 7, 2010 (UTC) :I'll get to it when I have a chance to dig out my VHS of ''Monkey Business. The visual is striking but I'd like to compare the whole scene (given things like Hungerdunger etc. though it seems pretty likely; probably Jerry Juhl's idea). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 00:45, February 8, 2010 (UTC) ::Hi! I brought up the question over on the Marx Brothers page. It's been on my mind for a while, and just finally decided to ask. In the scene, Groucho's annoucing as if for a boxing/wrestling match, I believe, rather than a baseball game as in The Great Muppet Caper. But, the scene is on YouTube here if you don't get the chance to check your VHS. ::On a side note, The Marx Brothers Silver Screen Collection is probably one of my most cherished DVDs, aside from my Muppet discs. :-P --Justin 05:18, February 8, 2010 (UTC) Bill Cosby Thanks for fixing Bill Cosby! I almost had a heart attack until I found out that it was an internet rumor that was all over Twitter in the middle of the night last night. After realizing that no legitimate websites were saying anything, I went to bed. -- Ken (talk) 02:08, February 7, 2010 (UTC) :Yeah, it smelled fishy and I googled and reverted (especially since someone had registered just to add that; I won't block unless they try it again since one can't tell if it was hoaxing or genuine confusion, but the inclusion of so many details not even in the Twitter buzzing suggests a hoaxer). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 03:46, February 7, 2010 (UTC) ::Yeah, apparently, Twitter is known for being the place where people spread celebrity death rumors. Johnny Depp has "died" before, and Bill Cosby has "died" 5 times! At one point, somebody even linked to what turned out to be a fake CNN page. I was on a rollercoaster ride for an hour and a half, waiting for something real. Finally, I figured out it wouldn't be happening! Oh, and this morning, even Bill had a comment about it on his website! -- Ken (talk) 04:51, February 7, 2010 (UTC) Talk:The Marx Brothers I know you know the answer to this one! -- Ken (talk) 06:49, February 6, 2010 (UTC) Preferences bug Hi! They figured out the problem with the preferences bug -- they'll release the fix tomorrow. :) -- Danny (talk) 20:10, February 4, 2010 (UTC) :Hooray! -- Andrew Leal (talk) 20:15, February 4, 2010 (UTC) ::Okay -- it's fixed, but the new code hasn't been released live to the site yet. That might not happen until Wednesday, so I turned off the new Create Page extension until then. So now you shouldn't have any skin problems, and by the time we turn CP back on, that bug will be fixed. Sorry for the inconvenience -- I'm really glad you told me about the problem. -- Danny (talk) 19:54, February 5, 2010 (UTC) :::Thanks for the update! Yeah, as of this moment, everything is back to normal for me. And I'm glad they figured it out, since this is the kind of thing that could affect a lot of users. So yay. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 19:57, February 5, 2010 (UTC) ::::Yeah, for sure! We didn't realize how big it was because it was only happening on wikis that had the new Create Page feature turned on. The skin problem doesn't seem like it has anything to do with CP, so it didn't occur to me that it was related. We only figured it out when we turned on the new CP sitewide, and suddenly we got lots of complaints about the skin. -- Danny (talk) 20:41, February 5, 2010 (UTC) Cuchi cuchi! Hi! I can't believe nobody's found this yet! I finally found a way to get Charo on the wiki! Watch this clip, especially at 4:45. I'm still watching other clips, but I think that's a start! (I still wish we could confirm if she did the Spanish versions of Jazz Numbers, though!) -- Ken (talk) 03:55, February 2, 2010 (UTC) :Hooray! I know we'd talked about it, since it seemed she *must* have worked with them some time in some context. And now we have it! Good work, Ken! I'll be glad when the Slim Pickens Hee Haw clip surfaces myself. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 05:36, February 2, 2010 (UTC) ::I didn't put her birth year and real name, because there's some controversy over her age, and her real name is huge, so I didn't know how you wanted to do that. Also, now that I'm thinking about it, have you ever seen any Jazz Numbers in Spanish? Does Plaza Sesamo show them? I can't believe they've never shown up on YouTube. I hope I didn't imagine them! -- Ken (talk) 05:56, February 2, 2010 (UTC) ::::Ah, I missed the age issue, so yeah, we leave it out in that case (and likewise, we don't *have* to include real names for famous people, especially if it's awkward and the connection is slim but fun, since that's easily found on other sites). And I've never seen any, but I'll let you know if I uncover anything. I know they did more than a few Spanish-only segments specifically as part of the bilingual curriculum on Sesame itself (usually paired with the English version). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 06:05, February 2, 2010 (UTC) :::::Yeah, I remember a lot of the speech balloon ones being shown in pairs with dubbing or different animation, and the 4-armed guru counting to 20 is all over YouTube. If any of your voicechaser friends ever run across any Sesame voice work Charo did, please tell them I'd love to know about it! -- Ken (talk) 06:33, February 2, 2010 (UTC) Sesame Street Music Magazine Have you seen this yet? Our resident Bob McGrath expert brought them in. And they came with records! -- Ken (talk) 02:54, January 31, 2010 (UTC) :Yep, I'd seen them (and added the category and did some clean-up). I'm glad to see we have details on the first issue too. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 05:40, February 2, 2010 (UTC) ::Yeah, Kate has everything she put up, but Danny wasn't sure if they were worth making a page for every issue, so she made one for the first issue, and he liked it. I started looking at our magazine section, and I'll have some other questions soon, but this week is nuts, between the first new WB title starting tomorrow, and Danny just told me the 3-CD set's back on! I knew the Warner deal would spark other stuff! -- Ken (talk) 05:56, February 2, 2010 (UTC) If I could walk that way, I wouldn't need the powder Hey Andrew. I thought you might have fun with this too. Walk this way is something I came up with last night. I was watching A Celebration of Me, Grover as I was drifting off to sleep, and they used the gag. I wondered how many other times it has been used in the Muppet universe, and it amused me since we don't really see the full "walk". I thought I'd start a page, and I have put it in the sandbox now for two reasons. One, I need to watch the Grover bit again because I don't remember the exact context in my drowsy state, and the other is that I was hoping folks might come up with some other gags (there is a Count von Count elevator bit, but that's the only other one I can dig up). I figured you might know of a few examples, maybe even from Dog City (since you are our resident expert on that). If we think it's a lame page, we can toss it, but I thought it would be fun in the Movie References category, and one of those wacky pages that we have fun with around here. -- Nate (talk) 21:30, January 28, 2010 (UTC) :Synchronicity! I just did a little clean-up on that myself! Mostly clarifying so it doesn't seem like Mel Brooks really is the most notable example, just the most frequent in recent decades and thus the most familiar to modern audiences (there's countless older examples, usually involving butlers, including at least one Abbott and Costello movie). One of my own personal favorites is a variant used when Jack Benny was a guest star on Lucille Ball's show. It played on the by then also well-established jokes about Jack Benny's walk (Phil Harris: "You could put a dress on that guy and take him anywhere"), so when Lucy says "Walk this way," Jack pauses, turns to the audience with one of those famous looks, and says "I always do!" -- Andrew Leal (talk) 21:34, January 28, 2010 (UTC) ::The connections of uses and how they tie into references by the Muppets was mind boggling when I was going through the wikipedia article. Nick and Nora Charles, ''Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Drawn Together, the list was too fun. And it's a great old time Burlesque/Vaudeville joke, so of course I love those connections as well. I was hoping you might could come up with a couple Muppety ones. -- Nate (talk) 21:41, January 28, 2010 (UTC) :::Yeah, and the Wikipedia article barely scratches the surface (focusing more heavily on recent stuff, no doubt because that's what the casual users felt like adding). One would think they'd used it at some point with, say, Sweetums or someone like that. So I'll keep an eye out for it next time I go through ''The Muppet Show or any with a mansion/old dark house-type context (always a favorite setting for the bit). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 21:43, January 28, 2010 (UTC) ::::Oh, and I have the Grover DVD! So I'll get it out and add the context later (I have a non-paid writing deadline and other stuff, but probably tonight). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 21:45, January 28, 2010 (UTC) Sweet. I just picked that DVD up last week, and it was just a joy to watch. I am sad I hadn't gotten it before now. But it was four bucks in a discount bin, and I like to buy my DVDs cheap. lol. There were so many fun little things in the video that I sent a text to my email with a few of them to make sure they were listed on the wiki in their appropriate places. I'll move the article out of the sandbox since its a keeper. -- Nate (talk) 21:48, January 28, 2010 (UTC) :And it's already growing rapidly! I was thinking there *might* be one in one of The Tubmans of Porksmith skits, given the fact that they involved a quavering old butler, but I couldn't check them easily. I'll try to find it later to screengrab, or else get the numbers DVD with the Count skit, so we can actually have an image of the walking itself (in the Grover DVD, the movements are too fast for me to screengrab clearly). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 22:29, January 28, 2010 (UTC) Show tense When we make pages about shows, is it "Dragnet ''is a TV show", or Dragnet was a TV show"? I'm seeing it done differently. -- Ken (talk) 01:06, January 25, 2010 (UTC) :Good question. We had a discussion waaaay back as far as tense for Muppet/Henson series and concluded that we used the present ("Fraggle Rock is a TV show.") "Was" seems most appropriate for pilots that failed to sell or projects that were abandoned. I think originally, with Dragnet and other shows, the idea was to distinguish if a show is on the air or not, but that becomes moot. Looking at it, it may depend on structure. Dragnet uses is and fits the phrasing (it *is* a pioneering police procedural etc.) whereas Gunsmoke uses was, but it ends with the fact that it was one of the last radio dramas (where present tense doesn't work). So generally, is, and especially in simple statements ("Blank is a show which ran"), was only if context demands it ("Blank was the first show to feature Jim Henson's Muppets as well as juggling armadillos.") In a case like Gunsmoke, we could probably reword easily to standardize (first sentence, "Gunsmoke *is* a Western series which began on radio and went to TV. It *was* one of the last network radio dramas, ending in...") Does that make sense? -- Andrew Leal (talk) 02:19, January 25, 2010 (UTC) ::Yeah, reading a few pages, it looked like shows that are still on the air use "is", and old TV shows use "was", but if we use "is" all the time, then whenever they get cancelled, all we have to do is update the years. I'll clean up stuff as I find it. -- Ken (talk) 02:46, January 25, 2010 (UTC) The woods, as usual Jeez louise. Did the asylum let out early today? -- Danny (talk) 06:04, January 21, 2010 (UTC) :Yeah, it broke out in a veritable rash. I've mostly been working on the wartime book proposal today (nearly done, but had to step away from it) so I'm glad you took care of some of it (especially the kid; that was a nice message, since I do kind of feel bad when it's obviously not just some nut or jerk but an over-eager kid, in actual age). I finally realized what was, sort of, up with that Zippo guy (who's done weird stuff before anyway); apparently it's because the 40 Years book quotes Fierlinger as saying "I made my first film for Sesame Street in 1971," and he assumed that somehow referred to Teeny etc. So apart from the big violation (ignoring messages and correction), he didn't know how to read/digest information properly either. -- Andrew Leal (talk) 06:12, January 21, 2010 (UTC) ::Just a question. Shouldn't we give a talk page message to the kid who's too young? I don't think she'll know to look in the Block Log for the reason. -- Ken (talk) 06:45, January 21, 2010 (UTC) :::I missed Ken's question before -- people see the reason for their block the next time they try to make an edit, so the young kid saw it. It's a shame that we had to block that kid; they really were adorable edits. -- Danny (talk) 02:29, January 25, 2010 (UTC) Birth year format Hello! Say, do you know if there are certain guidelines on birth years articles, such as what the format is? For instance, when a celebrity has a stage name, is "(b. 19XX)" placed after/before the bolded stage name (i.e. on Ice-T)? Thanks, [[User:SchfiftyThree|'Matt H.']] (talk) 21:14, January 20, 2010 (UTC) :Hi! Good question, and I may try to say more later (I'm trying to work on something else off-Wiki), but yes and no. There are certain loose guidelines but never formally ratified, so to speak. In general, the rules on celebrities is only birth and death years, not full dates (we save those for the major Muppet Wiki-relevant people instead, the puppeteers, designers, Sesame regulars, Jerry Juhl, Joan Ganz Cooney, etc.) Not all celebrity pages note their stage names (and a lot of them had them) but usually two bolded names is to be avoided (right now Frank Oz is like that, but while it can be debated, it makes more sense as an exception since he's a major topic for us and it's the leader text before several long subdivided sections). My own preference is usually to either a) work the birth name into a narrative format (like on Slim Pickens) if the article warrants it (since by now Pickens is more obscure to most Muppet Wiki visitors than Ice-T) or have it follow the main name used for the article title. Bob Hope works well, for example, while Tony Randall in my opinion should be reworked so it's clearer. There's also inconsistency, as you can see, as to how many dashes or spaces to use when separating birth and death dates, so i twould be worth bringing up at Current Events, but in general, the format currently used on Ice-T is messy and ugly (the fact that he's a rapper and the stage name is more obviously not what he was christened at birth is a minor complication, but it can and should still be reworked to avoid the double bolding). That's more than I intended to type now, actually, so I should get back to other things, but I'd say feel free to play around with what looks better on Ice-T (you might also look at Mark Twain; different since he's deceased of course and was more apt to maintain a distinction himself between his birth name and penname, but still useful) and then bring it up on Current Events (then if we can get agreement on firm guidelines, we'll add them to the Policy and Guidelines or Style Guide pages for future reference). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 21:40, January 20, 2010 (UTC) ::Thanks for the answer! However, I was kind of hoping for an answer about the "(b. XXXX)" being placed before or after the celebrity's real name. The Ice-T article currently reads: Tracy Marrow''' (b. 1958), better known by his stage name '''Ice-T. Would the year be placed after Tracy Marrow, or after "Ice-T"? I might have been asking for the wrong thing, but who knows? :-) Thanks, [[User:SchfiftyThree|'Matt H.']] (talk) 01:41, January 22, 2010 (UTC) :::That's why I pointed out Mark Twain. The format would work there if you reversed it: Ice-T is the stage name of rapper and actor Tracy Morrow (b. 1958), or however you want to word it. Andrew Leal (talk) 01:54, January 22, 2010 (UTC) ::::I've fixed it. Hope it looks better now! [[User:SchfiftyThree|'Matt H.']] (talk) 00:16, January 23, 2010 (UTC) ::::::It looks good! The main logic in my suggestion, by the way, and reason I approach it slightly differently than say Bob Hope (who changed his first name) is that the subject was definitely not born Ice-T. One could argue that "Ice-T" as a persona was born on such and such date, in the way "Mark Twain" didn't exist until Samuel Clemens wrote his first book under that name; that may sound picky and of course we have tons of cases of stage names, but only a few that were specifically chosen *as* stage names for such a specific purpose or sound but never intended to be confused or assumed to be the subject's birth name, compared to many who say chose something that was less "ethnic" sounding or whatever, and more often than not those names were legally changed as well (which again doesn't apply to Ice T or, say, a wrestler and so on). -- Andrew Leal (talk) 01:38, January 23, 2010 (UTC) Andrew's talk archive *Muppet Wiki Talk Archives